6.11.06

Sinister Mathematics

From the excellent Loubnan Ya Loubnan (In French), the explaining of Patrick O'Connor's ''Israel's Large scale killing of palestinians goes unreported' (EI in English) and the mathematics of it.
At the beginning of the second Intifada the ratio is between 2.5 and 7.6 Palestinians killed for each Israeli. At the third trimester in 2006, the Ratio jumps to 71 Palestinians killed for one Israeli.
Palestinians stopped their suicide bombings, elected democratically a government and what did they get in exchange ? More killing. This is definitely a war of extermination. I used to advocate peaceful resistance for palestinians but I am wondering whether peaceful resistance is not one of the many ways to get killed when you are resisting a power like Israel.

24 comments:

naj said...

perhaps anonymous and e have a good response to this!!!!
They're terribly quiet when presented with numbers, aren't they?

Anonymous said...

Interesting post, but Palestinians are still attempting suicide bombings. Why do you say they stopped? The problem is that Israel is getting better at preventing them.

fasdfa said...

They didn't stop with the sucide bombs...they dont succeed...they still shoot their "kassams", and yes they kidnap one israeli soldier, this operation start to stop teir "kassams" on "Sderot".
7 kassam fall on "Sderot" every day.
democracy...LOL

e said...

Naj,
What exactly is the problem?
Could you be more specific?
Since the beginning of the second intifada Israel has:
1)Built the wall
2)Reinstated its intellignece operations in the west bank
3)Added many checkpoints
4)Learned from the battles of the second intifada

All together the result is that the Palestinians are much less effective and that is why the ratios are more in favor of Israel.

You keep returning to the numbers but fail to explain why they make any difference except show which side is fighting better or has learned from its mistakes.

If I am walking down the street with my friend and 100 people attack me for no good reason, but I am able to kill all 100 of them but my friend sadly dies, the ratio is 100 to 1 but does that make my act of self defense unjust? No. Numbers have got nothing to do with this. The question is whether the Israeli actions are self defense or not.

If you like, we can discuss this issue.

e

MarxistFromLebanon said...

May be when the racist Israelis give real offers rather do an offer and send the bulldozers, the Palestinians would stop resisting, remember, 60 years ago, there was no Israel but Palestinians... so deal with it...as well as Zionists brought their followers as a foreign body rather Palestinians... and as long as Israel making the lives of the Palestinians horrible to the extent of disparity and suicide, then ask the why?

Great post Les Politique

Sophia said...

E,

You are becoming more and more erratic my friend.

If, by your logic, the following points are what is making the ratio of 1 Israeli to 71 Palestinians satisfying:
''1)Built the wall
2)Reinstated its intellignece operations in the west bank
3)Added many checkpoints
4)Learned from the battles of the second intifada''

Then why Israel has to kill massively the palestinians ?

It is one of A (your points which are presented as preventive and don't mention killings) or B (deliberate killings and violence on one side, the israeli side) that may explain the massive killings and the sinister ratio.

But if you tell me it is both to justify your point of view then THE ONLY REASON ISRAEL STILL NEED TO KILL EVEN AFTER HAVING ADOPTED ISOLASIONNIST AND PROTECTIVE MEASURES AS POINTS 1,2 and 3 AND 'LEARNED FROM THE FIRST INTIFADA' as you say, IS BECAUSE ISRAEL HAS A PLAN FOR THE EXTERMINATION OF PALESTINIANS. OTHERWISE, WHY IT SHOULD FEEL OBLIGED TO KILL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN A PRISON. IT IS DUBBED CONVERGENCE BY OLMERT OR POPULATION TRANSFER BY LIEBERMAN.
FIRST YOU CLEAN THEN YOU CONTAIN THEN YOU KILL MASSIVELY. SOUNDS FAMILIAR ?

e said...

Sophia,
Your point is that because of the measures done by Israel less Palestinians should be dying relative to earlier times. You are right that this should be the case if Israel is successful. In the West Bank Israel is successful and much less Palestinians are being killed realtive to a few years ago.

However, in Gaza, Israel was not successful:
1) The Palestinians were able to capture Gilad Shalit from within Israel.
2) They are able to keep firing Qassams.

This has led to Israel having to stage incursions into Gaza to try finding Shalit and stop the Qassams. During these incursions, many Palestinians died and few Israelis because Israel has improved its fighting methods.

Your example proves that what I am saying is exactly correct. Where Israel is successful, less people die. Where it is not successful, more people die. This proves that the aim of Israel is not to exterminate the Palestinians but to secure its borders. Where the job is done well, and the borders are secure, much less Palestinians are killed.

e

Anonymous said...

several explanations:
1. Hamas encourages martyrs and suicide. Palestinians are more willing to die.

2. Hamas uses human shields and fires from residential areas. When Israel fires back, innocent Palestinian people are killed.

3. deaths due to Hamas-PLO fighting are being blamed on Israel.

4. Israeli intelligence and checkpoints are defeating Palestinian attempted suicide bombs.

But the "mathematics" argument is a trap for Israelis. Arabs outnumber Israel by 100 to 1 ratio. If Israel retaliated only on a 1 for 1 basis, then Israel would be destroyed.

Behemoth101 said...

Sophia, pourquoi publier ces maudits commentaires par les Zino-fascistes de sacrements?

Leur ignorance me fait chier.

Sophia said...

e,

I am not proving you are right.
I tell you why:
Israel is adopting another tactic in the west bank, settlement. I mentioned the convergence plan by Olmert. Convergence means evacuating Jewish settlers from heavily populated palestinian areas like Gaza and spreading and reinforcing settlements in the West Bank. israel is not doing the same thing in the west bank because it cannot. But when the west bank will be asphyxiated by settlers like Gaza, Israel will evacuate sensitive settlements and do in the west bank, excatly what it is doing in Gaza now. By this time, Gaza will be history, sad history. And if the international community does not react, Israel will achieve its aim in twenty to thrity years from now.

It think one has to be idiot or without moral conscience to believe Israel and its apologists like you and to don't notice where the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is heading right now. However, history shows that heads of states as well as ordinary people usually like to close their eyes on horrors, they open them only after they are achieved.
But when the horrors that Israel is achieving will come to the public consicence inetrnationally I would not like to be Israeli, I would be ashamed. israel is sealing its own fate of self destruction and defeat.

It is when they are falling that dark powers become the most dangerous, we are living now this stage of Israel's power. This is a power at its height with no restraint. Do you know what kill this kind of power ? Greed. Next step is the big fall.

I wish we can prevent this, but people like you keep telling themselves and the world stories in order to not see the inconvenient truth. Israel is in a dead end. Europe was able to externminate Indians in America and to change the course of things irreversibly there but the demographic balance was on their side. Do you think that when Israel will have exterminated all the palestinians, Arabs will forgive ? And do you think there are enough Jews in the world to counterbalance the demographic of the region ?

Peace is needed now. A state for palestinians is needed now. Rights for Palestinians within the Israeli state are needed now if Israel wants to continue to exist and stop its illogical course.

Anonymous,
Right now, Israel is fighting only the palestinians. Arabs are not fghting israel, they are pretty soft on it but if Israel is going to exterminate the Palestinians then yes may be it will have to fight to the end of time because it will never be forgiven and it will never be able to exist peacefully in the region. Zionism's narrative would become a self fulfilling prophecy.

e said...

Anonymous,

I disagree with you. As an Israeli I think that Israel should kill as few Palestinians as possible and that retaliation or revenge is never a good excuse to kill Palestinians.

Israel does the utmost to secure its citizens and borders while killing and injuring as few Palestinians as possible. How many Israelis are killed by Palestinians is not important. The goal is Israeli security and not harming Palestinians.

Obviously, Sophia doesn't agree, but that is why we are having this discussion.

e

Wolfie said...

It is quite clear that the Israeli government view the current climate between Islam and the west as an ideal opportunity to further their "zero sum game" agenda free of outside criticism or pressure. This climate may not last forever so they feel they must strike swiftly and hard while the window of opportunity permits. Also the public has been hardened by images of Iraq and Afghanistan so that now a few dead Palestinians are of little consequence to them.

If only the radical Imams of North London realised that every anti-western speech they make costs lives abroad somehow. No wonder they fight harder, they have less to loose.

On this issue I'm afraid I have become pessimistic Sophia. The Palestinians no longer have any friends of much merit and the evenings seem to grow dark.

Sophia said...

Behemoth,

''Sophia, pourquoi publier ces maudits commentaires par les Zino-fascistes de sacrements?''

Because some are enlightning.

Sophia said...

Wolfie,

I agree with you on this one.

naj said...

I just like to highlight few important and very humane lessons I just learned from our zionist visitors. I am too impressedto produce a response!

E said:
If I am walking down the street with my friend and 100 people attack me for no good reason , but I am able to kill all 100 of them but my friend sadly dies, the ratio is 100 to 1 but does that make my act of self defense unjust?

E said:
Where Israel is successful, less people die. Where it is not successful, more people die. (little self-righteous nation it is this Israel, heh?)

anonymous said:

But the "mathematics" argument is a trap for Israelis. Arabs outnumber Israel by 100 to 1 ratio. If Israel retaliated only on a 1 for 1 basis, then Israel would be destroyed. ( hmmm this explains why they kill 100 people, as E noted above! )

So Sophia, I think they are answering your point about extermination. I mean If Arabs outnumber Israelies, then sure, they need to be exterminated or at least killed in sufficient numbers so the numbers match and so the Israelies do not feel threatened while living in the occupied territories. And yes, whoever doe not succumb to the iron fist of the occupier is a lunatic who deserves to die under heavy gunfire and with command of heavy intelligence.

Well, dear Zionists, do you think it would be smarter of Palestinians to consume poison and die in silence instead of blowing themselves up in your coffee shops? I mean, you must have made the dear life so bitter for people to want to give it up, no?

And don't anyone dare to give me that cr@p about Islam promising heaven to suicide bombers! It's another one of your propagandist misconceptions!

It is just incredible! Even when Palestinians/Hamas offer peace these dudes pat themselves on the shoulder that it is because they are successful in their KILLING techniques.

e said...

Sophia, please publish my response to your response. It is an interesting discussion. If you don't want to post it for some reason, at least explain why. I was asking relevant questions.

e said...

Here is the response in case it got lost. If you already have it, please erase this.

Sophia,

I am not sure I understood your last point so let me ask a few questions first before responding.

You say:
Israel is adopting another tactic in the west bank, settlement. I mentioned the convergence plan by Olmert. Convergence means evacuating Jewish settlers from heavily populated palestinian areas like Gaza and spreading and reinforcing settlements in the West Bank”

For the current discussion I will agree with you on this.

Then you say:
“israel is not doing the same thing in the west bank because it cannot. But when the west bank will be asphyxiated by settlers like Gaza, Israel will evacuate sensitive settlements and do in the west bank, excatly what it is doing in Gaza now.”

1) What can’t Israel do in the West Bank that it can do in Gaza? I don’t understand because Israel has more control of the West Bank than of Gaza.
2) There are no settlers left in Gaza, so why do you say that Gaza is asphyxiated by settlers?
3) So first the strategy is take settlers from Gaza into the West Bank and then the tactic will be to take them out? What for? What is the aim of all this?

e

e said...

Naj,

Let’s stick to the argument. Don’t you agree that it is not the numbers that count but whether the actions are justified? That is the only point I was trying to make.

Now, if you think that Israel’s actions are not justified we can discuss that but the ratio of the Israeli dead to Palestinian dead does not prove anything except about the fighting capabilities.

Please check above, I completely disassociate myself from the anonymous remarks. My response was posted after your comment so it is understandable that you didn’t see it.

You say:
“Where Israel is successful, less people die. Where it is not successful, more people die. (little self-righteous nation it is this Israel, heh?)”

When Israel is successful in securing its borders less Palestinians and Israelis die. This is a fact that you have not disproved. This is what the quote means. Don’t quote me out of context please. This shows that Israel’s aim is to secure its borders and not exterminate Palestinians.


You say:
“Well, dear Zionists, do you think it would be smarter of Palestinians to consume poison and die in silence instead of blowing themselves up in your coffee shops? I mean, you must have made the dear life so bitter for people to want to give it up, no?”

They aren’t blowing themselves in coffee shops because of the wall and the better intelligence. They shouldn’t drink poison. How about the following alternative? As a first stage they should decide on a non-violent strategy. It will not work overnight but it will over several years buy them many friends in the West. It is a strategy that requires a lot of patience and courage but in my opinion it is the only one that has a chance of working. It will also build trust with the Israelis and will strengthen the Israeli left. Again, this is a ten year process, but the alternative is very bad for the Palestinians. Non violence by the way means no Qassams or other forms of violence by ALL factions.

As Israelis our trust in Hamas is zero. Only by non-violence and peaceful discourse over several years will they be able to make us trust them. We view them now as a mortal enemy. The second intifada hurt the psyche of both sides. The suicide bombings will have a long term effect on how Israelis think and what they believe. You may be happy to know that I am still nervous when at a light I find my car next to or behind a bus. With the revenge the Palestinians got using the suicide bombings they lost the trust of a generation of Israelis and the wall. When both sides distrust each other, the weaker side is always the loser.

e

Anonymous said...

NAJ
why do you say "Even when Palestinians/Hamas offer peace ...." ? Hamas has never offered peace. They have shot rockets at Israel since Israel left Gaza. Hamas talked about a "hudna" but did not offer it. A "hudna" is a temporary ceasefire while secretly getting ready for the next war.

Hamas refuses to recognize right of Israel to exists in any borders whatsoever.

Many people jumped on my comment "mathematics is a trap," but did not address the other factors I listed.

All along, Hamas has been sending suicide bombers into Israel. By a miracle, the bombs have bot killed anyone recently. Would you be happier with the numbers if some of the Palestinian bombs had successfully exploded? If more Jews had been killed? Would the numbers be more acceptable if the suicide bombers were more successful?

The point is PREVENTION and DETERRENCE.

Sophia said...

Naj,
E and some other anonymous visiting recently this blog are so convinced that they are right to the point they don't understand actually that people can disagree with their version and vision of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The starting point of their interaction is wrong.
I thought that this link may interest you

e said...

Sophia,
1) Kindly answer the questions in my reponse to you.
2) I understand very well why people may disagree. However, it is you who don't understand that the reason most people don't support you is not because they are immoral or stupid, but because Israel has very good reasons to act in self defense.

e

Sophia said...

e,

This is harrassement, typical of zionist propagandists. Anyone visiting this comment section and having a sane mind will notice.

I am not answering your questions anymore. There is a wealth of information on the subject if you want answers to your questions.

Behemoth101 said...

It looks like e's "hasbara" is working - you are getting worn out from answering all his pointless and inane questions.

He, of course, will come away feeling like he "stumped" you.

Sophia said...

Behemoth,

Actually he will be the only one to believe such a thing.

 
Since March 29th 2006